Comics Interview #6

Here is the full George Perez interview from Comics Interview #6. For further reading, go to the Visual JLA/Avengers Time.

David Anthony Kraft: Well, gee, all the questions I had prepared no longer seemed to apply. Here we are, having waited to the last minute — and yet, as we go to press, it’s not even certain whether there'll actually be a JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA/ AVENGERS book!

GEORGE PEREZ: Ever since I agreed to do this JLA/AVENGERS crossover, I've been very excited about it. I even jokingly threatened anyone else with a letter-bomb who even tried to get the assignment! I first asked for a plot all the way back as far as November or December of 1981, so I could have it really ahead of schedule, since it was scheduled for a summer 1983 release. Gerry Conway was working on other things, so he got it to me later than I would have wanted — but still in plenty of time to get it done. It was a very, very good plot, although it seemed to have a hell of a lot of plot holes.

DAK: What was the original plot?

GEORGE: It was a time story, wherein Kang the Conqueror and the Lord of Time somehow dislodge and chase after " some kind of stone that represents total power accumulation at the end of time. It’s bouncing backwards through Time and Space, and the villains use the JLA and the Avengers respectively to go against. each other, at different points in time, obviously with different pairings of the characters, to try to stop the others from getting the stone. The exact motivation was never clearly given in the plot. There was a motivation that was agreed upon between Gerry and myself, but it was never written down in the plot. It probably would have turned up in the writing. Roy Thomas was supposed to do the scripting, based on Gerry’s plot. The plot was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but strictly as a visual story it had a hell of a lot of potential. When I was told that Jim Shooter had turned it down, it distressed me, but it was understandable.

DAK: On a project like this — between Marvel and DC — who all has a say over. it?

GEORGE: According to the contract, Shooter as editor-in-chief— and obviously Mark Gruenwald as editor has to read it, and he’d have to approve it as well. But Jim’s is the final word as far as Marvel is concerned. Dick Giordano and Len Wein had approval over it at DC. Dick did not exercise his option, and Len thought the plot was okay. At that point, Dick had not read it.

After it was rejected, in order to understand what was going on, he did read the plot. Not yet knowing what Jim’s objections were, he saw a lot of things that he didn’t understand and would have objected to. So Jim had a legitimate point. The big: trouble was trying to specify what was, wrong. Jim just sent a very short, curt letter, saying it was “unacceptable. Try again, guys.” That was it — without dealing with the specifics, which was what we basically wanted. If the specifics could be ironed out, maybe the plot could be salvaged. If not, then we'd have to do another plot. The really big trouble started when I talked to Len Wein and we came up with a few ideas about correcting the plot. We suggested a few ideas that I was led to believe were discussed with either Jim Shooter or Mark Gruenwald. Now, by this time the book was already getting quite a bit behind schedule. So I had to have an answer immediately and DC gave me the go-ahead, saying that the plot should be okay, because basically every- thing had been discussed. All that had to be done was the formality of sending Jim Shooter a written plot. They told me to get started.

I had been drawing for two weeks and was already starting page 21, when I received a call from Len Wein saying they needed to find out what changes I was making in the plot. Joey Cavalieri had to do a piecemeal plot based on things I had changed — ideas, if not actual explanations — since I hadn’t quite worked out everything as I was going along yet.

The new plot was submitted and Jim rejected it outright, with a letter saying basically that it was the same plot with no changes. “Try again.” Let’s start from scratch, basically. Now, with 21 pages pencilled, I was obviously quite angry to find out that I had been working with no approval at Marvel’s end — or at least Jim Shooter’s end. I can’t say Marvel, because there were people who knew that I was working on it. They had seen pages. And at that point, I was pretty angry. I think it’s a combination — that he did not receive a plot and things were being done behind his back, and that he actually didn’t like the plot — that really started the trouble snowballing. This was in May of 1983. It took what seemed to me over a month just to get Jim to explain what were his objections. To write them out. He just wasn’t doing anything at that point. It took Dick and Jim getting together to discuss it.

After finding out exactly what he objected to, it turned out these things were basically the same ones Dick and a number of editors at DC had by this time found. Starting from scratch was an unacceptable alternative, so Roy Thomas was then commissioned to. do a new plot utilizing 21 pages already drawn and still make it all make sense.

A month ago, Roy sent in a treatment — not a plot — to Dick, that seemed to chart out a possible way to actually make a coherent storyline, giving motivation to the characters. Roy was then told to do a full plot— since a synopsis cannot explain everything — just to make sure that Jim would have no objections. Everything would be typed out for him, to say exactly why this is done, why that is done, what motivates everything, how it will end. So Roy did a plot, which I read. I was surprised as all hell that he actually managed to do it, using the already-drawn 21 pages, with what would come to maybe one or two pages worth of re- |” drawing.

It was submitted to Jim Shooter. And the days dragged by. Jim never seemed to have time to read it. If he had rejected it outright, I would have understood — if he didn’t like it, fine. The thing that started to really bother me as time passed was that he hadn’t gotten around to it.

Now, this is no minor league project. This is a major, major project. The idea of “not getting around to it” makes it seem like he’s treating this like a reprint book.

In San Diego, I gave an ultimatum, if he doesn’t give an answer by the end of the convention, then I have to get off the book. Dick convinced me, having talked to Paul Levitz, to wait a while longer. Obviously, this was a hell of a lot of money to be lost in a fiscal year. They were counting on projected profits, and to suddenly just yank it off the schedule was something they were quite concerned about. Jim stated to Dick that he had to show it to an editor — I assumed it was Mark Gruenwald — just to work out a few little things here and there. He said it seemed okay, but he wasn’t going to make a final commitment. Unfortunately, as of yesterday, the 22nd of August, Shooter’s still giving the same answer. Dick tried to contact him last Thursday. Instead, he talked to the secretary, who said Jim couldn’t get to the phone at the time and didn’t know when he’d be able to get back to Dick. Same thing happened yesterday. Dick gave him the word that if I had not gotten some answer — even a rejection, which I would have accepted — by 5:00, then I am off the book.

“Haven’t gotten around to it, don’t know when I’m going to be able to get back to you, it might be a few days.” I was tired of that. I had heard that over and over and over again. The plot takes half an hour to read, and I’m not a fast reader. I couldn’t believe that Jim Shooter did not have a half hour, or whatever really small amount of time it takes. Because the project is so important, take a half hour of your sleeping time — take an hour off from going to bed — get it done.

You know, it was incredibly tight, the book was supposed to be out three months ago. Granted, the plot wasn’t approved the first time , but everything since then is because Marvel Comics — excuse me, Jim Shooter — has not done a single thing to help it along. He’s procrastinated, ignored it, and actually made it seem that DC was the one that was constantly dragging their feet. But we couldn’t make single move without Jim exercising his power of accepting or rejecting. The fact that he wasn’t even making a decision as the thing that finally did it. I mean, it was procrastination. A rejection, we could have accepted. But the idea that he has not even bothered to take the time to give us an answer was the thing that made me realize that I don’t trust him any more.

I gave Jim every benefit of the doubt. I was the last person who was not willing to accept the fact that this was being done on some level other than a professional level. As Editor-in-Chief, it was his duty to get that thing edited and either accept it or refuse it as quickly as possible. He did not do it. And I have no confidence that he will do it. I can’t wait any more. It broke my heart. I had been looking forward to this assignment before I had even turned pro. It was a pipe dream, the idea that someday maybe the JLA and the Avengers could get together. I never thought it would happen. I lived for waking up to get started on those pages. It’s the most heartbreaking decision I've ever had to make. I regret making it, but I don’t trust Jim Shooter. I just don’t think he wants the project done.

His excuse — I can hear it already, “Well, I did not want an inferior product coming out, It had to be the best plot possible.” Fine — I agree with that. I wanted the best plot possible, too, but in one reading you should be able to tell if the plot is acceptable or not. It does not take a month. I’m assuming Jim Shooter can read faster than a plot a month, and form an opinion. The fact that he made no effort to move things along proved to me that this whole crossover thing has become an utter sham.

DAK: How does this affect the X-MEN/ TEEN TITANS crossover you were also ‘going to do?

GEORGE: I don’t know. — frankly, I don’t care. I’ve already told Marv Wolfman and everyone involved that if that project falls apart, I won’t care. I don’t want to take the chance of going through this political meat grinder again. I’ve had it affect me emotionally, physically. I was one of the few people who left Marvel with absolutely no disenchantment and no axe to grind. But I actually called Al Milgrom to turn down the last BLACK WIDOW cover, because as a point of principle I don’t want to work there. I consider the Epic line a totally separate thing — I wouldn’t worry about working for Archie Goodwin. I’d rather deal with someone I can trust, and Archie’s never given me any reason not to trust him. Up until this point, neither had Jim. It’s just become an incredible political thing, something I had hoped never to get involved in, hoping that all these horror stories I had heard about Jim Shooter were just exaggerations. As far as I’m concerned, Jim’s personality has nothing to do with it. It’s his ability as an Editor-in-Chief. If that’s the way he treats a major, major project, then I wouldn’t trust working on any project there.

DAK: I must say, it really is a surprise to hear all this, because when I talked to Mark Gruenwald yesterday, he said, “Gee, it’s OK with Jim, it’s OK with me.” I got the impression everything was proceeding in hunky-dory fashion.

GEORGE: When I talked to Dick, his impression was that somebody else still had to read the plot. Now, if Mark has read it already, then I have no idea who it was. If Mark’s the editor, and Jim’s okayed it, then what the hell was the problem?

It could be revenge for the fact that the book was started without him. If that’s so, it makes him sound incredibly petty. Again, the word “‘if.” I'm not going to read his mind, I’m just going to give my impression. He did make a statement to Dick Giordano that when Paul Levitz had to approve his plot for the SUPER- MAN/SPIDER-MAN story, the second one, that it took about three months for an approval to be made. Whatever Paul’s reason, whatever bitterness that may have caused Jim, whether it’s understandable or not, is beside the point. It’s just unprofessional to let that mar your judgment. If he objected to Paul Levitz’s doing it, then by doing it the same way, he’s acting as unfairly as he believes Paul to have been acting.

DAK: Have you talked to Jim at all about this?

GEORGE: I haven’t talked to him, because Dick Giordano felt that it was his responsibility to do so. As it turns out, Len Wein is no longer the editor of the book, and technically, as far as Dick knew, the actual editors dealing directly with it would be Dick Giordano and Jim Shooter.

Whatever his reason — whether it be petty, which is my impression, or just an incredible breakdown in the editorial system over at Marvel — if I had to work with their approval or his approval riding on it, I was not going to trust it any further. They blew it! I mean, whether they want to accept the blame or not, I frankly don’t care. I don’t think — obviously, Marvel’s not gonna — Jim Shooter’s not gonna accept the blame. If he does, boy, it sure would be something for me to see. If nothing else, this JLA/AVENGERS thing has taught me a very bitter lesson; never to do anything unless I get every- thing in front of me in writing, and never take anyone at his word. I will not do a } project unless I, myself, have some amount of control over it, from here on in. And this is my exercise of control — I just won’t draw the book. That puts me in the position — which is probably what Jim may have wanted — that it’s DC’s decision. This way, he has the excuse: He wanted a much better product, he wanted this to be really extra-special. But by waiting, and knowing my schedule was becoming too hard to handle it, knowing that Dick Giordano’s schedule was getting way too hard to handle it — he won the victory, as far as he was concerned. If the project is cancelled due to the fact that I have gotten off the book, then the victory is his. As far as the technicalities are concerned, Jim is not at fault. You know, “It’s George’s decision. If you can’t find someone to replace George, that’s something we can’t help. We can’t help that his schedule can’t permit it. He shouldn’t commit himself if he can’t handle it on his sched- ule.” It would have been fine on my schedule, six months ago, the way it was supposed to have been.

The hell with all this nonsense! I’ve got other things I want to do. I may as well do a JUSTICE LEAGUE ‘graphic novel; I’ve already got a plot idea. It may be crap. But at least it'll give me a fighting chance. People will tell me, ““No, it stinks, don’t do it,” as opposed to, “Uhh. . .give me time.” (Laughter.)

DAK: I don’t think I’ve ever heard you quite so exercised. Sounds like a real mess...

GEORGE: Oh, it’s terrible. As far as I can see it’s almost irreparable. It’s done irreparable harm as far as the finances of both companies, which is really what confused the dickens out of me. You know, Marvel has gotten hurt by this. I don’t think their credibility is being helped at all. The more Marvel made it sound like it was DC’s fault, the less people believed them, from most of the reactions of the dealers that I’ve gotten. In fact, particularly since I have shown some of those pages to people. They’ve seen the pages and they’ve wondered what the hell as Slowing things down. I mean, if he’s counting on this project being letter perfect, then he should put a little more faith in the actual creative people. Despite all the flaws, I have faith that Roy would be able to put it together. I also have faith in my own storytelling ability. Whether Gerry had intended his plot simply as a skeletal thing with somebody else putting in all the reasoning — whether he had already discussed it with Roy, maybe — I don’t know. But whatever the case, the notion of waiting for the Really Right Plot becomes rather subjective.

Granted, popular opinion was on his side. DC’s own editors agreed with him as far as the flaws in Gerry’s plot. So we got a new plot — and what’s being done with it? Nothing.

“I'll get around to it,” as he says. Well, if he wants to get around to it, let him get around to explaining to people why there is no JLA/AVENGERS book. It’s not going to be a one-sided explanation. We're not gonna let the explanation put the blame all on DC — I’m not gonna allow it. If it means going public to express my view, just because I’m afraid it’s going to get slanted — I will do it. I will not sit by and see something that I love very dearly, made to seem an exercise in incompetence on the part of the side that I was working with side, the basic plot-line that Gerry did, only to have Shooter undercut him. I don’t understand. It’s one thing not to like Gerry’s plot — I can’t argue if Jim Shooter doesn’t like my plot. But the basic point seems to be that two or three weeks later, he was just not bothering to give it any kind of priority. I don’t have any insight, as to why, except, of course, all the various things that have caused problems for Shooter — be it me, or Marv, or Gene Colan, or JLA/AVENGERS. Whatever or whomever Jim can’t control, he doesn’t seem to be very comfortable with. (Laughter.) And we tried to give him enough control and input on this, so I don’t quite understand what his problem is.

I could face the rejection. I don’t care, because it doesn’t bother me much one way or the other whether this book gets done or not. If it does, I'd be happy to write, it — if it doesn’t, I got paid for the plot. I'll lose some royalties but, on the other hand, I wouldn’t have to do the work. Writing dialogue for all these characters will take a lot more research, so it’s really six of one and half a dozen of the other. Whatever remissness there may have been on the part of Dick or DC at the start — by being overly eager about getting George started — there isn’t any reason for Shooter to deliberately take so long.

“Dick has been trying to get him to make a decision. Now there are calls going back and forth between people over Dick’s and Shooter’s heads. You know, it’s gone to levels above Shooter’s and Giordano’s — and it still hasn’t produced any definite word, as of today.

I think it’s a shame that a comics company is run that way, but that’s Marvel’s fault. I’m no longer there, so I don’t care. I just feel people ought to know what’s going on.

NOTE: I have only quickly scan through and fixed some typos or spacing issues or OCR-errors.

Source: archive.org